Curse

Deagol · Jun 09, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

Name one RPG that does not have a "grind".

I mentioned two in another post. And also how Guild Wars can be played without grind.

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

Really? As a programmer myself I would be interested in hearing how you did this. What language did you use for it? What APIs to the search engines? Did you implement some kind of Bayesian algorithms? Please tell!

I wrote it in basic. It used winsock API to connect to the search engines on multiple raw data sockets to run search queries. It then connected to the websites that best matched my search terms and a set of criteria and scanned the pages for information relevant to my topic....using a hierarchial criteria set as a checksum. I'd then dump all the data into a log file and run the log file through an algorithm that would remove paragraphs of information that were relatively the same. Like I said it wasn't perfect...alot of what it pulled were entire pages or entire paragraphs of junk. But it would pull enough relevant research in hours for me to complete term papers others spent weeks researching.

kaya · Jun 09, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madjik

Theres no discussion, its all monkies throwing feces at eachother.

chill out, grow up.

oh! that's nice! freekin thanks for the comment i'll go hang on my tree now. FREEK! this is what forums are for.

it's true there were many people voting for rune traders, and other things of the sort, but what about the ones who apposed the idea? I'll tell you what... it seems that apposing something is always wrong and we can for sure be downgraded to monkies if we do. Thanks for the assumption bro.

WE SPEAK OUR MINDS!

Darkest Dawn · Jun 09, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deagol

Nope, only the current crop of RPG's fit that sad definition. The ones I started with, rogue and hack, had no grind. When you re-enter a level in hack, it is as you left it. And new monster spawning was too slow to provide you with the food you need to stay alive. So you was forced to continue progressing, and thus to meet new (and stronger) monsters, rather than killing the same monsters over and over.

I don't believe any current games work like that, but at least Guild Wars allows me to play the way I like, one area/mission a time, until I beat it, and then move on. That is not grind.

If I wanted the "perfect" character, I would have to grind for items (or gold). Luckily, I don't care about having a "perfect" character. I just want to have fun playing the game, and when I have beaten it (solved all quests and missions) move on to something else. Then maybe replay it later with a different character.

Well said!

After all, they promised 100 hours of gameplay. I've put more than that into it and I've got much more to do. I haven't even played PvP yet either. Plus new areas are coming soon, and expansions to follow!

I got more than 50 bucks worth of entertainment! How can I complain? I beat HL2, Farcry, and a number of other big name games in far less time for the same price.

codemonkey · Jun 09, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

Really? As a programmer myself I would be interested in hearing how you did this. What language did you use for it? What APIs to the search engines? Did you implement some kind of Bayesian algorithms? Please tell!

Yes, do tell. I'll listen as well as I am a network programmer and would love to hear your insight into the situation. And as we are all lazy geeks we have plenty of time to read your documentation, whitepapers, and explainations!

For the most part, it sounds like something that can be done in perl/tcl with wget and some regular expressions with a back-end SQL query/set interface.

You agree Diplo? ;-)

Thanks,

CodeMonkey

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

I'm sure he's a nice kid in real life, so ya don't have to dislike him. I've just gotten used to ignoring most of his posts because they repeat the same topic (about how much his opinion should rule over the common gamers).

Although he did lose credibility with the "do you seriously believe any of the dribble that comes out of your mouth? " topic. Thus far its a very binary topic: you either are smart, or you stupid. No real good reason to go insulting someone's opinion by using phrases that make them seem like idiots (when its really just a reflection on yourself and how you react). I don't care if your 12, 16, 21, 30, there is no good reason to insult someone that posts an opinion or a topic.

If you have nothing good to say about someone.... ya know where I'm going with that ;-)

CodeMonkey

I happen to not agree with everyone elses point of view....which automatically makes me wrong among the masses...this I certainly understand. But my opinion is no less valid. I read numerous posts by DarrenJasper....all of which were derogatory or insulting in nature...to multiple different people. And yes...it made me question his age. My opinion is my opinion...nothing more than that. I don't expect nor would I want anyone to simply agree with it. But I certainly have as much a right to dislike the patch as any of you have to like it.

Keesa · Jun 09, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

Yes, do tell. I'll listen as well as I am a network programmer and would love to hear your insight into the situation. And as we are all lazy geeks we have plenty of time to read your documentation, whitepapers, and explainations!

For the most part, it sounds like something that can be done in perl/tcl with wget and some regular expressions with a back-end SQL query/set interface.

You agree Diplo? ;-)

Thanks,

CodeMonkey

I just want to know how he gets the scansion set for paragraph form. I've yet to see any parser be able to logically order sentences without needing someone to go back through and proof.

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

Role playing games are by definition a “grind”. If you want to blame someone for it blame gygax for designing D&D the way he did.
A, you start at first level
B, you go out and kill monsters
C, you gain levels for killing monsters and get to buy better stuff with their loot
D, you go out and kill stronger monsters
E, rinse and repeat

The story is very is very important in RPGs but it is not everything, a sense of accomplishment is just as important and of growth of your character from one thing to another. It is a keystone to every RPG ever designed. GW is moving away from that and catering to the instant gratification crowd. Even if that sense of accomplishment is an illusion(and I’m not saying its not) when you shatter it by making all the work just a waste of time because you can reproduce it in a few minutes in the newbie town and of course your going to have jaded players. I’m not jaded, I’ve said before, I got my moneys worth but I understand people who are.

Congratulations, you just described SPGs (Statblock playing games). If you really, honestly think that "your character" consists of numbers only, then yo u never played a true rpg. Do you know that you can play a RPG without stats? And still have character advancement? A sense of accomplishment?

Have you ever been told to go play counterstrike because you dont talk "in character"? Then go play counterstrike, this is a Roleplaying game after all.

kaya · Jun 09, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I happen to not agree with everyone elses point of view....which automatically makes me wrong among the masses...this I certainly understand. But my opinion is no less valid. I read numerous posts by DarrenJasper....all of which were derogatory or insulting in nature...to multiple different people. And yes...it made me question his age. My opinion is my opinion...nothing more than that. I don't expect nor would I want anyone to simply agree with it. But I certainly have as much a right to dislike the patch as any of you have to like it.

yes indeed! i'm with ya!

Madjik · Jun 09, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaya

oh! that's nice! freekin thanks for the comment i'll go hang on my tree now. FREEK! this is what forums are for.

it's true there were many people voting for rune traders, and other things of the sort, but what about the ones who apposed the idea? I'll tell you what... it seems that apposing something is always wrong and we can for sure be downgraded to monkies if we do. Thanks for the assumption bro.

WE SPEAK OUR MINDS!

I never made any assumption. Im calling it like I see it. Flaming isnt discussion. You want the problem fixed you have the sanitarium to base your ideas off of. By sitting here and splitting heads in the manner of your post your only proving yourself as a troll. You want to oppose a subject you have every right to do it, going about it in this manner wont do anything. Like I said, this isnt a discussion. its a flame war. You want to speak your mind there are far less aggresive ways to do it. That is all I ment when I said that. I apologize for being too harsh with the sentance, but thats how it is.

Stur · Jun 09, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

See your being tricking and redefining the word again, but whatever I say you’ll just redefine it again. I will admit this thread has gotten me more heated than the actually patch though, if your happy and don’t think that it will bore you to tears buying everything off vendors rather and exploring areas and finding them I’m happy for you. I hope you have a great gaming experience.

nechronius · Jun 09, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Congratulations, you just described SPGs (Statblock playing games). If you really, honestly think that "your character" consists of numbers only, then yo u never played a true rpg. Do you know that you can play a RPG without stats? And still have character advancement? A sense of accomplishment?

Have you ever been told to go play counterstrike because you dont talk "in character"? Then go play counterstrike, this is a Roleplaying game after all.

Not just that. But even that style of gaming didn't have you fighting against the same tribe of ettins, over and over, night after night, so that maybe, just maybe, after you kill all of them you will successfully roll a 100 on a d100 so that you can get the secret Skull Crest of Omni-Godliness. Even the Gygax model didn't force you to do that.

codemonkey · Jun 09, 2005, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I wrote it in basic. It used winsock API to connect to the search engines on multiple raw data sockets to run search queries. It then connected to the websites that best matched my search terms and a set of criteria and scanned the pages for information relevant to my topic....using a hierarchial criteria set as a checksum. I'd then dump all the data into a log file and run the log file through an algorithm that would remove paragraphs of information that were relatively the same. Like I said it wasn't perfect...alot of what it pulled were entire pages or entire paragraphs of junk. But it would pull enough relevant research in hours for me to complete term papers others spent weeks researching.

How did ya quote your sources if you cut and rip apart a ton of paragraphs from a huge list of sources?

How much memory did it consume? You do realize creating a raw socket on Microsoft windows is virtually illegal unless you use they're latest OS (unless your speaking ICMP which is one of the only areas they let raw socket creation succeed). Seems like you could have simply use a standard socket and connected to port 80, and issues the CGI posts through there. Which would get you a larget set of search results or you could use a standard GET request, but the token list can only be so long (255 I believe).

If your creating raw sockets you had a lot of work ahead of you if you want to re-design the TCP state machine just to talk to a google like search engine.

CodeMonkey

codemonkey · Jun 09, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I happen to not agree with everyone elses point of view....which automatically makes me wrong among the masses...this I certainly understand. But my opinion is no less valid. I read numerous posts by DarrenJasper....all of which were derogatory or insulting in nature...to multiple different people. And yes...it made me question his age. My opinion is my opinion...nothing more than that. I don't expect nor would I want anyone to simply agree with it. But I certainly have as much a right to dislike the patch as any of you have to like it.

Sorry, I'm not discounting your opinion. I'm disagreeing, which is all fine. My point is that you fight your opinion with insults which discredit your opinion (and your mental capacity).

I don't really care that DarrenJasper insulted you first... best way to get back at him is a civil response (then we know who the "punk n00b really is"

Your not wrong about your opinion, your just wrong about your approach to making it. That's all I'm saying..

Thanks,

CodeMonkey

kaya · Jun 09, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madjik

I never made any assumption. Im calling it like I see it. Flaming isnt discussion. You want the problem fixed you have the sanitarium to base your ideas off of. By sitting here and splitting heads in the manner of your post your only proving yourself as a troll. You want to oppose a subject you have every right to do it, going about it in this manner wont do anything. Like I said, this isnt a discussion. its a flame war. You want to speak your mind there are far less aggresive ways to do it. That is all I ment when I said that. I apologize for being too harsh with the sentance, but thats how it is.

apology accepted! honestly it didn't bother me that much. but this is just people speaking they're minds. And some of use are trying to discuss this. the problem is there is nobody here to keep the order and hush people up and to focus on one side then hit the other like a real discussion should be. i guess in a way it is that way, but half of it's more like this: "Your an idiot for this..." You 12 years old" "Your should quit then" If people could stop pointing fingers at others and just state they're point of view this would be more a realy discussion. :P

sorry for my finger pointing if there was any.

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

How did ya quote your sources if you cut and rip apart a ton of paragraphs from a huge list of sources?

How much memory did it consume? You do realize creating a raw socket on Microsoft windows is virtually illegal unless you use they're latest OS (unless your speaking ICMP which is one of the only areas they let raw socket creation succeed). Seems like you could have simply use a standard socket and connected to port 80, and issues the CGI posts through there. Which would get you a larget set of search results or you could use a standard GET request, but the token list can only be so long (255 I believe).

If your creating raw sockets you had a lot of work ahead of you if you want to re-design the TCP state machine just to talk to a google like search engine.

CodeMonkey

I was in high school...I had no concept of what was and wasn't legal...nor did I care. I was more interested in programming than I was anything else. I was experimenting with raw sockets and had nothing else to do it with. I had grown tired of writing applications that got me free time on AOL or free CompuServe names...etc etc. It was more an exploration into Winsock API than it was to keep from having to do research for term papers.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jun 09, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

RPG does not equate grind For all of you that keep saying that it does, kindly shut the hell up.

When has repetition ever been mentioned in "Role, Playing, Game?" Of course there is plenty of grind in other MMORPGs, but guess what? It's a cheap trick to hide lack of content and a way to get you hamster wheel driven grinders to keep playing the game.

And I especially love the accusations that we're all 12 year olds because we don't want the grind. It makes no sense, since it's all the kiddies who have to the extra time to waste on grinding, not the working adults.

Seriously, if you miss the grind, no one is stopping you from doing the infuse runs 5 times if you want. Set the challenges on yourself, if you're so dead set on thinking that repetition is "skill" Go help 5 different people do their infuse run if you need an arbitrary goal.

Lastly, if you thought ANET wasn't ever going to take the step in the direction they're going now, what the hell were you thinking? It's been said over and over again that this is a game of "Skill based not time played"

Algren Cole · Jun 09, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by codemonkey

Sorry, I'm not discounting your opinion. I'm disagreeing, which is all fine. My point is that you fight your opinion with insults which discredit your opinion (and your mental capacity).

I don't really care that DarrenJasper insulted you first... best way to get back at him is a civil response (then we know who the "punk n00b really is"

Your not wrong about your opinion, your just wrong about your approach to making it. That's all I'm saying..

Thanks,

CodeMonkey

I simply questioned his age....as I truly wondered if he was a 12 year kid. It wasn't meant as an insult. but at my age I would feel like I was doing more harm than good should I be arguing with a 12 year old boy. I apologize if it came across as me being insulting(even though I expressed it in a derogatory manner)

Madjik · Jun 09, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaya

apology accepted! honestly it didn't bother me that much. but this is just people speaking they're minds. And some of use are trying to discuss this. the problem is there is nobody here to keep the order and hush people up and to focus on one side then hit the other like a real discussion should be. i guess in a way it is that way, but half of it's more like this: "Your an idiot for this..." You 12 years old" "Your should quit then" If people could stop pointing fingers at others and just state they're point of view this would be more a realy discussion. :P

sorry for my finger pointing if there was any.

Correct. My post wasnt directed at everyone. Just those trolling and finger pointing, which as you stated is at least half of those doing the discussing (you know who you are). My hope is the tone becomes more civil and less degenerating.

codemonkey · Jun 09, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

I was in high school...I had no concept of what was and wasn't legal...nor did I care. I was more interested in programming than I was anything else. I was experimenting with raw sockets and had nothing else to do it with. I had grown tired of writing applications that got me free time on AOL or free CompuServe names...etc etc. It was more an exploration into Winsock API than it was to keep from having to do research for term papers.

Ah yes, my first experience of winsock was as a freshmen in college. From there I moved to DirectX 2.0 and all hope of simplicity was gone...

CodeMonkey